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News & Updates

29 August 2017

Heavy modification to the forum structure has been made. Flourish and Blots has been merged with The Owl Post so please check there for any threads that have been moved. This excludes Documentations, which has been moved to Knockturn Alley and can be found under the For the Site forum. Absolutely no threads have been deleted, only moved, so if you are having trouble finding your post, please click here.

25 July 2017

A new skin has been added and is currently being perfected by both members and staff at this time!! Want to get in on the discussion? Click here! We would love to hear from our lurking members about the appearance of our new, dark skin! Don't worry, we're working on a light skin as well, but we wanted to give our darker skin lovers a chance at bat this time around. Come throw in your two cents!!

20 July 2017

Hey Floo Users! We are working on a revamp of the site. We welcome your ideas and feedback! Head over to the Daily Prophet section and see the threads there pertaining to the Overhaul of the site. We would love to hear from each of you! The staff apologize for letting FPN slip in activity. We are working hard to fix the issues we have discovered since our launch last year and will be hopefully relaunching again soon! We encourage all of you to post in all remaining areas of the site to increase activity again. Start new threads, dive in and have fun! Don't forget to share your ideas! We want to hear from you all!

Welcome to
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Emily Admin

I'm a Missouri girl born and raised. I'm a mom of two hyper active boys that are fifteen months apart. I am a very OCD, organized and hyperactive person. Coffee is like my drug, I don't function without it. Seriously. I don't. I get really really grumpy without it. I am a huge Sims fan and often get distracted by my sims, I lose time in that game...it's very wibbly wobbly timey whimey stuff. Harry Potter is love... but you knew that... at least I hope you did especially if you are here on FPN. Feel free to PM me if you have questions about anything! I'm always happy to help!

Bugsy Coding / Admin Coding and general admin here. Prefer contact via PM, or feel free to tag me in anywhere I'm needed around the forum. <3
Eisande Graphics / Admin Stuff about the staff in here.

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 Master List Of Content, Site Overhaul Information

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Posted: Jul 12 2017, 12:12 PM PM Quote
Here you will find a list of all the features that FPN currently has, will be adding and what we intend to drop in our overhaul of the site. Feedback is welcome on each item. We want to vastly improve the direction of the whole site. Everything is up for discussion, feel free to nitpick any specific feature to help the staff team improve!

List will consistently change, keep checking back for updates

Key:
strike through represents features up for elimination or those that have already been eliminated
italics represents features that will be modified
bold represents new features not yet implemented
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  • Elemental Orders - replaced with Hogwarts Houses Sorting System to be removed, drop down in profile fields to choose your house will be added
  • Floo Gaming Department
  • Fan Fiction - lack of interest
  • Network - (open to category suggestions) - rework functionality and overall rules, form, etc
  • Request Station (Graphics, Coding, Skins, Templates, etc)
  • Role Play & Lore Guides
  • Pensieve
  • Featured Sites
  • Trivia (sidebar)
  • Donation spots - until there is a need for them


This post has been edited by Emily: Jul 20 2017, 04:18 PM

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Blue looks good on the sky, looks good on that neon buzzing on the wall, but darling it don't match your eyes. I'm telling you, you don't need that guy. It's all black and white. He's stealing your thunder, baby, blue ain't your color.
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Posted: Jul 16 2017, 09:37 AM PM Quote
QUOTE (Emily @ Jul 12 2017, 10:12 AM)
Here you will find a list of all the features that FPN currently has, will be adding and what we intend to drop in our overhaul of the site. Feedback is welcome on each item. We want to vastly improve the direction of the whole site. Everything is up for discussion, feel free to nitpick any specific feature to help the staff team improve!

List will consistently change, keep checking back for updates

Key:
strike through represents features up for elimination or those that have already been eliminated
italics represents features that will be modified
bold represents new features not yet implemented
------------------------------------

  • Elemental Orders - replaced with Hogwarts Houses Sorting System to be removed, drop down in profile fields to choose your house will be added
  • Floo Gaming Department
  • Fan Fiction - lack of interest
  • Network - (open to category suggestions)
  • Request Station (Graphics, Coding, Skins, Templates, etc)
  • Role Play & Lore Guides
  • Pensieve
  • Featured Sites
  • Trivia (sidebar)
  • Donation spots - until there is a need for them



I'm going to go ahead and reiterate some of the suggestions I made in the staff area so that members are current on the conversation and suggestions that we have already begun with.

Hogwarts Houses - Members should be given the choice of the house they want to join, but once the choice is made, it should only be able to be changed by a member of the staff. A form should be necessary for changes.

Gaming Department - Let's get a handful of games together and focus on those. Something interactive with lots of rewards to get people interested in the site and posting and creating activity.

Network - I'm thinking more is less - at least for now - in this area. In most areas, really. We can always add more. Let's not get too overwhelming with it all until we have more need for such things. Potter, Pre Potter, Post Potter, AU. Keep it simple. Drop the required posts on FPN down to 5. Let's make it easy for people to get started here until we have a bigger member base and can support that many posts by a single person.

The Owl Post - I want to change pretty much everything about this area. Get rid of the Pensieve area as a forum. Let's make that a thread and pin it in the Request forum. In the Requesting Station, let's do a complete forum overhaul.

The Owl Post -

Resources and Guides -
- Characters and Lore (Canon Males, Females, History, Magic, Misc)
- Images (Canon Males, Canon Females, Creatures, Locations, Misc.)
- Premade Site Enhancers (Skins, Templates, Banners and Backgrounds, Misc.)
- Misc. (Anything and everything else.)

Requests and Searches -
- Request an RP (Character, Buddy, RP, Site, etc.)
- Request a Code (Single pinned thread with rules for requesting, and templates for different types of requests.)
- Misc. Requests (optional)

Pensieve Lets make this a thread for now, we can always create a forum later. We're looking to create activity, not a bunch of one-post threads, so let's make this more of a community discussion thread than a forum with a lot of one-three post threads.

Featured Sites - Right now, let's rotate them weekly if we can manage it. We need things to be changing and growing and we need to be advertising and getting our button out there and giving away the advertising space like it's going out of style.

Sidebar - I'm not a fan of cluttered sidebars. I'm thinking a cbox over there, and then I'm trying to create a custom menu that will allow members to add 2-4 links of their choice to appear in the sidebar. That way each member will be given the opportunity to create a menu of the areas they use the most. Especially useful for those people who are busy with life often times.


coming coon
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Posted: Jul 18 2017, 05:53 PM PM Quote
Network- Are you guys going to allow previous members to post their ads without having to go through the hassle of posting five times? Right now I'm having a bit of a stubborn streak and I'm really turned off by everyone requiring posts before being able to get an ad placed. I understand the needing to join and maybe have five posts before being able to post character want ads and other types of requests/getting involved in games/other site aspects. Are you set on this idea for networking?

House- Are you guys going to have common room threads as well? if yes- find a way to create incentive to post there. ^-^ Offer house points for things done within your common room.

Skin- I love content areas when they are set up nicely, because I hate having to search for updates. That's just my random toss in for skin input.

Good luck guys! I'll be popping in every now and then to see what is happening! Emily knows how to contact me on RPG-D as well.

This post has been edited by Tink: Jul 18 2017, 05:57 PM

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Posted: Jul 20 2017, 02:58 PM PM Quote
Tink In regards to the post count requirement for the Network, that is not something we have discussed recently but we can start discussing it and see if that is something we want to do.

The common rooms will more than likely stay. As you mentioned we will need to work on ways to get posts happening there.

The skin will be getting an over haul too. I know Bugsy is working on some skin options and I believe Eisande will also be doing a skin set to choose from as well. As for the current, we will probably do some work on it to make it more user-friendly.

Thanks as always for the suggestion. We really do appreciate your feedback.


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coming coon
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Posted: Jul 20 2017, 04:02 PM PM Quote
Emily

I do understand the networking thing is to help gain and keep members, so it isn't too much of a big deal. But I do think it's a turn off when you get an ad in your advertising section and you can't just link back. I wouldn't argue with needing to register to link back, then allowing members to bump their ads. Then members would be able to bump ads and gain access to the rest of the site.


I'm excited to see the new skin! Possibly one of my favorite parts about building a site, even though I can't make skins. >.>


Also, I just thought of this. For the features sites I would do it bi-weekly or monthly. Weekly is going to end up seeming like a very fast transition and leaves lots of room for forgetting to do it.

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Posted: Jul 20 2017, 04:18 PM PM Quote

We will definitely be reworking how the network itself functions.All current sites listed will remain listed even after changes are made.

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Dropping in with the things I have done for the revamp:
- As mentioned in the cbox, archives emptied. Fan Fiction removed (lack of interest). We will be working on the Owl Post section next, it is such a mess.

- Several threads in the Network Submission area have been merged to clean up the section a bit.

- Welcome post in the Rules & Info was removed as it's an unnecessary read since we have the start guide that acts as a welcome and a guide.

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coming coon
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Posted: Jul 21 2017, 01:37 PM PM Quote
Maybe some kind of template to move all your information into: rules, guides, announcements. I don't know if it is just me but trying to read the rules feels overwhelming because it isn't formatted in an eye-pleasing way or a reader friendly-way. Having it set up like that makes the site feel cluttered and not stream-line. Other than that, I'm like totally out of suggestions. XD

This post has been edited by Tink: Jul 21 2017, 02:10 PM

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Admin at



Blue looks good on the sky, looks good on that neon buzzing on the wall, but darling it don't match your eyes. I'm telling you, you don't need that guy. It's all black and white. He's stealing your thunder, baby, blue ain't your color.
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Posted: Jul 23 2017, 04:27 PM PM Quote
Tink Originally, we had templates, so I'm not really sure what happened to that (I broke up with an ex and was homeless for a while, so checking back here was on the back burner for a while in all honesty). I'm working on templates that will match the new skin. I agree. Everything looks very cluttered in the Rules. I'll make that a priority to focus on when I work on the skin.

I've dropped the link to the skin I'm working on over in the cbox a few times, but here's a preview of the skin I've been working on. I've got some changes I want to be implementing, but all in all I'm getting pretty close. Templates will be created after I finish the rest of the skin so that there won't be any conflict between the two after they are created.

Emily Maybe we could go with like... Posting your ad doesn't require the minimum, but posting wanteds for characters and maybe even bumping requires activity? Just kind of throwing some stuff around. I think 10 is way too many and I can tell you right now, until we have the member base that a place like the D has, I would click out and not even join here when I saw that number. It took me 6 months to get around to it on the D as it is. And I was actively managing a site at that time as well.


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Posted: Jul 23 2017, 04:41 PM PM Quote
Bugsy, I've got a few ideas up my sleeve to address the post count issue. A few that came from Tink . I'll bring it all up her soon with the staff so we can start rolling out changes. We'll get this all smoothed out and ready to go. http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif

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Posted: Jul 23 2017, 07:31 PM PM Quote
Helloooo my dears. I am alive! <3

I knew we bit off more than we could chew out of good will and excitement, and now that I have separated myself from this project I can see that.

To be honest, I think you have to start completely bare bones. Hear me out...

1. Eye catching skin -as always http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif
2. HP forum Directory
3. HP writing, lore, coding and graphic resources. (Owl Post and Flourish and Blotts)
4. Chat area for HP and non-HP related discussions.

AND THAT IS IT.

Everything else is extra, but the main purpose had always been to be a resource for HP forums. Building the community up and adding all the extra bells and whistles comes with time. Everything that we thought of and fleshed out is totally valid... for a developed site. Those awesome things will come with time when the logistics are right and it fulfills a need within the community. Absolutely keep everything well documented somewhere, there will be the day when its right to implement it.

I think your priority is to be the HP directory no one has, advertise the shit out of it and give members a second HP home other than their own site. The points, trivia, fan fiction, it may or may not come back later when the interest is there and it will be a much better fit by then.

I hope this works out this time, and I will definitely be around. Msg me some time girls! <3

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coming coon
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Posted: Jul 23 2017, 11:47 PM PM Quote
Bugsy I am very sorry to hear that and I totally understand why you poofed for a while. I'm glad you're ok though and I hope your life has smoothed out. I know how devastating things like that can be. And absolutely, I would wait until the skin is all done before working on a template set. And honestly, I agree about the posting requirement. But like Emily said, I gave her ideas and what you suggested is basically what my very first suggestion was. Allow people to post, but require a membership and post count for posting requests and all that. But hopefully Emily puts across the other idea that I think will work just as well!

As for the skin, I love the content areas and your custom stats and forum description codes! I also love that the cbox toggles. Sometimes it gets distracting if it's full. Are you using those images to just show where images go? (I always ask, even if it sounds stupid. My coding/graphics admin hates it when I ask for clarification on things like that but you just never know!) I think the neon green is going to be a bit hard on eyes, but i do like that you're using green for links because green flame = traveling = floo powder network. I'd create an h1 tag for the news/updates area so it can be larger than a bold and have different spacing, possibly different font. that way you can use the h1 for the dating of each announcement. It'll help break apart each thing posted there. Since you have two giant content areas, use one for news and one for displaying challenge winners maybe even find a way to advertise peoples wanted characters?? idk I've never seen that done and it might be interesting/unique. 3 affiliate areas under links should go to people who have donated or staff sites. the others can be the rotated affiliates? Anyways! This is all praise! I love skins with ALL the content areas, which you have! and all I'm doing is suggesting how to use the space. http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif I'm so excited to see it all done.

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Blue looks good on the sky, looks good on that neon buzzing on the wall, but darling it don't match your eyes. I'm telling you, you don't need that guy. It's all black and white. He's stealing your thunder, baby, blue ain't your color.
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Posted: Jul 24 2017, 07:58 AM PM Quote
Stefs

Hey there!! No worries, life happens, and I'm not alone. I've got an amazing man to support me and help me, and we're kicking some butt together now, so things are definitely looking up! Good to see you lurking around still! I think we are working on downsizing a lot of things for a lot of the reasons that you mentioned. I know we all saw the potential for FPN and we wanted to make sure that we didn't miss anything, and I think we ended up with a whole lot more than we realized. So, simplify and build again!!

Tink

Honestly, I had different ones in there a while ago and changed them to what's there now. I haven't really found images that I'm totally in love with, so that's something that still might change. I'm working on a new green, but the lime is super easy to see, so it makes getting everything sorted out and organized much easier. I'll change it to something less jarring when I get closer. I'm trying to keep the green for the Floo fire! I'm trying to use it sparingly, though, so that the links really kinda pop against all that dark background. Lol. I've got a couple of different ideas for the content area, but adding a header for the news is definitely going to be a thing.

The banner is still kinda-sorta under construction. I think I want a few less links to the left, and I was thinking challenge winners and OTM's in the other big content area, but I like the idea of member wanted ads being featured up there. A good way to encourage members to post around the site. I'm going to ponder on that a little. Any suggestions?? I'm thinking like... a tier system?

Something like... Members can reply to a topic to have their wanted ad posted in the banner after they reach 10 posts. For the second time they reply to the topic to have a Wanted featured in the banner, they have to have 20 posts, and at least TWO of them have to be in either the Common Room thread for their house, or the Welcome Center for new members (WC thread posts should be two different threads). So on and so forth. Ads would be featured for two weeks or until the Ad is filled, whichever comes first???


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Posted: Jul 24 2017, 12:40 PM PM Quote
Bugsy What about the main background being just a textured background that looks like black stone and then the inside image behind the header is the inside of a Hearth/Fireplace? Might look cool?

I think less links would be good too. Keep the first four that are there: New to FPN, Rules, Owl the Ministry, The Floo Network, and then add Introduce Yourself as the last one.

I like that idea of a tiered system with some kind of 'challenge' placed with it. I don't think you should keep them up there until they are filled though. Do a two week rotation and just stated that your ad CAN be placed up again once you complete the next set of challenges/meet the next tier requirement. Because ads don't often get taken very quickly. It would be a bummer to have the same one up there for two months and taking up space of someone else's wanted.

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Blue looks good on the sky, looks good on that neon buzzing on the wall, but darling it don't match your eyes. I'm telling you, you don't need that guy. It's all black and white. He's stealing your thunder, baby, blue ain't your color.
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Posted: Jul 24 2017, 03:52 PM PM Quote
Tink Yep! That's what I said. Sorry if it was confusing. They would only be up there until the ad was filled if they were filled in less than the two week period. =D


coming coon
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Posted: Jul 24 2017, 05:16 PM PM Quote
I was just repeating your idea so you knew what I was talking about ^-^ But thank you for clarifying about the amount of time the ads would be posted.

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Posted: Jul 25 2017, 11:49 AM PM Quote
Stefs you live!!!!! *huggles* &hearts; great to see you around lovely. Thank you so much for the input. And that is basically what we will be stripping things down to. We still have all the stockpiles and stuff we worked on somewhere in google docs and other random places. So nothing we have come up with so far is lost. Going down to the basics is probably going to be our best bet. We aimed high, came up with some fantastic ideas. But many were far too big for a new site.


Bugsy just had a look at the skin again, I do really like the overall structure of the skin. The neon green is a little bit much on the eyes but that could also be from the contrast of the current light skin we have and flipping tabs to that one. Not exactly sure, but I do like it. What does bother me though is how busy that top banner is. There's so much going on in it and honestly not a fan of how busy it appears. It looks good, but not something I personally would like.

What are the two sections of buttons for? I know one is for winners of competitions and such, but is the other one for affiliates? If so, I would much rather our affiliate section be in the site footer. Simply because having that many buttons so close to the top of the site is distracting, especially since most people make theirs as gif animations. Next, the Most Wanted section, are the images just place holders? Cause I am really confused as to why that area would need images? Isn't that going to primarily be links to the wanted ads? And lastly, the staff images I feel are too big too. If once again, they are simply just placeholders then cool otherwise I'm not fond of the size of each placeholding image. I'm a bit overly picky when it comes to skins. lol

I really like the link hover effect in the header though it's pretty. The CFS is lovely as well. I agree with Tink on having some sort of gray brick background and the fireplace images within header. Just my two cents on it, I really do like it even if it seems like I am being super critical. I do that with all skins. It comes from years and years of doing site reviews. xD

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Blue looks good on the sky, looks good on that neon buzzing on the wall, but darling it don't match your eyes. I'm telling you, you don't need that guy. It's all black and white. He's stealing your thunder, baby, blue ain't your color.
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Posted: Jul 25 2017, 12:11 PM PM Quote
Tink No problem! I try to over communicate about something to make sure I know what the other person is really trying to tell me and that they are understanding what I'm saying, because sometimes my brain is mush. Lol. That's what happens when you work six days a week and have errands to run on your day off though.


Emily So, the neon green is actually tone down from what it was. It was literally neon lime green before. The color it is is toned down quite a bit. I'll work on trying to find something a little darker tho I guess. I can take one of the sections of buttons out pretty easily, preferably the small one, and I just realized I forgot to take some of those links out, so that will also kind of help tone things down a little. Add a little more space between them.

I changed one of the backgrounds already to a black brick background as suggested, and I more or less like it, but graphics isn't really my department. I've been trying to find a good image of a hearth or fire place, but I'm not really willing to use an image that isn't licensed for reuse (usually commercially, since this is a forum and we will eventually ask for donations for maintenance of the site) which seriously limits the quality of images available. I was thinking to coordinate with the graphics department and see what we can come up with.

Also, try hovering over the staff and MW images if you haven't already. I can change the image sizes as well, though, if needed. I made them a little bigger than usual to accommodate the text on hover without making it look super cluttered. I'm trying to make sure that most of the font on the skin is a large enough size that people aren't going to have to zoom way in to read anything. Yes, they are placeholder images. I wouldn't leave them like that, it looks ugly. Lol. I coded it for people's Wanted Ads to be able to go in there, and was planning to create a thread and form with a tiered structure for getting your wanted ad placed in there, but have been focusing on getting the skin done since that's a priority for launch.

I don't think a whole bunch of links in a giant content area is appealing in the slightest. I would literally never click on them. That's why I added the image and hover to the area. Let them find a catchy image (not a site button, banner or any other form of advertising not pertaining to that specific wanted ad) and a short blurb, add a link to the full wanted ad, and get some traffic around the site. First time getting up there is super easy to encourage people to post, and then from there make them explore the site a little in specific areas to continue to get different ads up there. Limit one ad per forum for now. I'm still working on it, but I could focus on that a little more this weekend. I've got my 3-10's at work coming up, and I'm usually too exhausted by the time I get home to do anything but bathe and sleep, so the weekend is realistically when I can start working on the MW structure.

And don't worry about being picky. I've been working on the skin with mostly no feedback from anyone other than "oh that's looking good" which is cool but not really constructive, ya know? Lol. And a few nights might have been long and late and you know how fuzzy the brain can get when that happens.


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Posted: Jul 25 2017, 12:22 PM PM Quote
Bugsy I saw the hover's on the MW but not the staff area. That is a good idea, maybe its the placeholder that's just putting me off from it. Not entirely sure. As for the staff one, I like it but I don't. I'd rather have a no hover list of who is staff with like some sort of pop-out thing that says all that in the hover. I also don't like that there is a scroll bar, maybe its just on my laptop but the staff thing scrolls. The less I have to hover/click/scroll in a header to see things the happier I am. That's just me though.

I'm not seeing the brick background its still the green and black mountain looking one. *shrugs* Its pretty, but not fitting lol. We do still have all the images that have already been made for FPN including the fireplace and the flames. You'd have to dig through the image files in the acp for them. We can give credits to the former staffers who have made the images, always planned to do that. If I remember correctly there are ones with the bricks. If not, I can try my hand at making us one like suggested. My graphics are rusty, but its a good excuse to start doing graphics again.

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Posted: Jul 25 2017, 12:30 PM PM Quote
Bugsy Make the larger background, the main background the brick because we will be able to see it through the category titles, like we can now with the mountains. replace the brick background (the wrapper) now with black- just the color. then add an actual header image. i suggest an image like this: Pic

But with a filter over it. if you give me dimensions for a header I can do it for you and play around with how it will look behind the header info. I'm not good at coding, but I'm fairly decent with aesthetics (not as good at my admin but heck I do ok, I learned it all from her). And once we get to that we can tweak other colors or play around with backgrounds once we see how this looks. I tend to start with basic and then add on where needed.

As for the content, I love what you're doing with the staff sections and the wanteds. But I'm not sure how I feel about the staff area scrolling. I'd keep the height and cut the width so they can fit in there. And if need be, remove the staff banner and make a point to have each staff image have a name area that's actual text so it'll be obvious that it's a staff info section. The wanteds: Name of Want Ad -link it, Name of Site. That's all you need. Make it linked so people have to go and actually view the want ad. ^-^ Because it might help it get taken if they recognize the poster.


IF you need help with this, with getting backgrounds, colors, and images all set up I can help out. i can't make anything cool like you can with hovers, so i'm no use there and I wouldn't want to take over any of that anyway because you're doing beautifully, but I can help with minimal graphics/colors/aesthetics. It does make more sense to accept Emily's help tho xD

This post has been edited by Tink: Jul 25 2017, 12:31 PM

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Posted: Jul 25 2017, 12:32 PM PM Quote
Emily I changed the tree background to the brick background, so that you can actually read stuff on the forum and in the banner. If I put the fireplace for the background where the brick background is currently located, then the whole forum looks busy and unappealing.

Annnnnnnd I just realized I changed it on the forum not on the test site. Lmao. I switched the skin over to the forum to start adjusting it for the actual FPN usage, so all of the changes I keep saying I've made are made here on the FPN skin and not on the test site. My bad. And honestly too lazy to change both. You can go into the your UCP and preview the skin to see what I'm talking about if you want. Sorry about that.

I had never planned to keep the mountain background, but it was green and it looked good with the skin so I used it. Like I said, I'm planning to coordinate with someone about an image, because my graphics skills are abysmal and it's not really my department. If you can find a hearth image that's dark enough not to make the skin look light and isn't copywritten and is big enough to cover the screen, I'm totally willing to use it, but good luck with that. I even tried to find a couple other things like a red bus (the double decker kind that the Knight Bus is), a stone hearth, stone fireplace or any other image that you think is fitting, I will be happy to change it, but I've already spent several hours trying to find one, and I haven't been able to, so I'm throwing in the towel and tagging in graphics at this point. I was thinking to commission a custom graphic, but was also waiting for the staff to be decided.


Tink the problem with that image, and many others like it is that it's someone else's property, and I'm not going to use that image on my skin without permission from the owner of the image, which could take months and often requires paying for the privilege to use the image. I've searched a lot of stock images and other sites and even Google with advanced settings to filter out images with a copyright. Which is why I'm thinking to commission a custom image. The image that's in the banner is the same as the main image on the forum, so it would be the same image, and it will have to be very large because it's going to be used as the forum background. It's not resized, cropped, or moved, it's meant to look like holes in the forum to get a peek at the background. If you're wanting to give something like that a try you are more than welcome to, but I think requesting an image on a resource site or from a graphics staffer is the route we're probably going to end up with.

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